Comments on: This museum is frightening! http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/ Blogging Asian Art and Culture Wed, 25 Jan 2012 00:25:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Sagiv Shats http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-9054 Sagiv Shats Wed, 07 Apr 2010 08:57:24 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-9054 Hi look at this skull samurai Netsuke - i don't know if it's appropriate for the Halloween but he is amazing. http://www.ivoryandart.com/servlet/Detail?no=1435 Hi look at this skull samurai Netsuke – i don’t know if it’s appropriate for the Halloween but he is amazing.
http://www.ivoryandart.com/servlet/Detail?no=1435

]]> By: Ana http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3744 Ana Mon, 09 Nov 2009 13:35:53 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3744 'The Mourners' looks exciting! [even online] And as it came up in the discussion here, it is tempting to consider that the iconography of bones and skulls were promoting humility at the time - not such a bad idea, if it wasn't for the transparent subtext conferring entitlement from 'those who fear' to 'those who face' death (a rather modern issue? - tempting!). A memento mori sort of thing would have been terribly inappropriate for a noble house of such ambition, wouldn't it... Oh well... Who knows how much and diverse meaning human bones got awarded in such a long history! Hirst's version was a recent reminder that still resonates, half consciously - possibly the reason why this thread here jumped right out of the entire blog, tempting as it is. ‘The Mourners’ looks exciting! [even online]

And as it came up in the discussion here, it is tempting to consider that the iconography of bones and skulls were promoting humility at the time – not such a bad idea, if it wasn’t for the transparent subtext conferring entitlement from ‘those who fear’ to ‘those who face’ death (a rather modern issue? – tempting!). A memento mori sort of thing would have been terribly inappropriate for a noble house of such ambition, wouldn’t it…

Oh well… Who knows how much and diverse meaning human bones got awarded in such a long history! Hirst’s version was a recent reminder that still resonates, half consciously – possibly the reason why this thread here jumped right out of the entire blog, tempting as it is.

]]> By: Carlton Hobbs http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3637 Carlton Hobbs Sat, 07 Nov 2009 22:09:07 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3637 We recently posted a blog containing four interesting 18th century examples of Vanitas paintings in different mediums including verre eglomise, with Death presented in various ways http://bit.ly/1vj9dy We recently posted a blog containing four interesting 18th century examples of Vanitas paintings in different mediums including verre eglomise, with Death presented in various ways
http://bit.ly/1vj9dy

]]> By: Nancy http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3630 Nancy Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:33:02 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3630 Alas, there was no chance to talk to the curator at the press preview of the upcoming show of "The Mourners" at the Legion, late in 2010. The sculptures, normally clustered underneath the tomb of Jean Sans Peur, the second Valois duke of Burgandy, will be on tour all next year because the museum is being renovated. They really don't fit into our theme of skulls and skeletons, being beautifully carved statues of various members of the court, all draped in enveloping clothing (the high fashion of the 15th century). But I think that xensen's inclusion of the skull image from Ancient Rome shows us how every old this theme is. I looked up images from the cave paintings but didn't find any human skulls; however, I think that they have found animal skills (bears?) at one of the caves. It's logical that a skull would be a universal symbol of death. Alas, there was no chance to talk to the curator at the press preview of the upcoming show of “The Mourners” at the Legion, late in 2010. The sculptures, normally clustered underneath the tomb of Jean Sans Peur, the second Valois duke of Burgandy, will be on tour all next year because the museum is being renovated. They really don’t fit into our theme of skulls and skeletons, being beautifully carved statues of various members of the court, all draped in enveloping clothing (the high fashion of the 15th century).
But I think that xensen’s inclusion of the skull image from Ancient Rome shows us how every old this theme is. I looked up images from the cave paintings but didn’t find any human skulls; however, I think that they have found animal skills (bears?) at one of the caves. It’s logical that a skull would be a universal symbol of death.

]]> By: Ana http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3536 Ana Fri, 06 Nov 2009 05:46:28 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3536 Skeletons? I think I can remember some hints to them in French cave paintings (the 'Shaman' type)... Always wondered whether it wasn't a matter of etiquette towards the dead rather then anything else that kept this particular motif from being as popular as it is wide spread from primitive cultures onwards... Another question! I should apologize right here for the confusion: I was referring to the spooky gray ghost with a face on the belly and a bird pecking at it. Clearly, there are scavenging birds of prey in the arts of Mediterranean antiquity well before anyone cared to know whether Asia exited. Sure enough, I find such widely shared representations absolutely enthralling! No need for any hint to a historic 'mechanism' of diffusion or what not. If someone made news of their parallel interpretations, I'd be watching that before the weather report! [Oops for the self-serving digression: but since now most respectable museums have blogs... I'm getting hopeful here!] However, monsters with misplaced faces are not that common, and my question was intended to refer to them. Perhaps the image has grown independently in SE Asia, the Middle East and medieval Europe, but somehow, I wonder whether there really isn't another story there. For once, these beasts were deployed to depict the foreignness of various geographical unknowns in a thin layer of secular literature closer to home, as opposed to the dread of under-worlds at home (i.e. where they are indeterminately older - like much of the monsters of popular religion - and have close to universal audience). I regret not being able to give proper references to these... I was not entirely prepared for an opportunity to chat casually about such things! :) Nancy, I would be very grateful for an answer, if you have a chance! Many thanks! Skeletons? I think I can remember some hints to them in French cave paintings (the ‘Shaman’ type)… Always wondered whether it wasn’t a matter of etiquette towards the dead rather then anything else that kept this particular motif from being as popular as it is wide spread from primitive cultures onwards… Another question!

I should apologize right here for the confusion: I was referring to the spooky gray ghost with a face on the belly and a bird pecking at it. Clearly, there are scavenging birds of prey in the arts of Mediterranean antiquity well before anyone cared to know whether Asia exited.

Sure enough, I find such widely shared representations absolutely enthralling! No need for any hint to a historic ‘mechanism’ of diffusion or what not. If someone made news of their parallel interpretations, I’d be watching that before the weather report! [Oops for the self-serving digression: but since now most respectable museums have blogs... I'm getting hopeful here!]

However, monsters with misplaced faces are not that common, and my question was intended to refer to them.

Perhaps the image has grown independently in SE Asia, the Middle East and medieval Europe, but somehow, I wonder whether there really isn’t another story there. For once, these beasts were deployed to depict the foreignness of various geographical unknowns in a thin layer of secular literature closer to home, as opposed to the dread of under-worlds at home (i.e. where they are indeterminately older – like much of the monsters of popular religion – and have close to universal audience).

I regret not being able to give proper references to these… I was not entirely prepared for an opportunity to chat casually about such things! :)

Nancy, I would be very grateful for an answer, if you have a chance! Many thanks!

]]> By: Nancy http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3513 Nancy Thu, 05 Nov 2009 17:55:58 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3513 Tomorrow, I will be previewing a show of sculpture from the tomb of Jean sans peur, late medieval duke of Burgandy (sorry the exact date escapes me). I'll ask the curator of the exhibit if he (she?) knows about the history of the skeleton image in Western Art. That image from Pompeii is stunning. Tomorrow, I will be previewing a show of sculpture from the tomb of Jean sans peur, late medieval duke of Burgandy (sorry the exact date escapes me). I’ll ask the curator of the exhibit if he (she?) knows about the history of the skeleton image in Western Art. That image from Pompeii is stunning.

]]> By: xensen http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3511 xensen Thu, 05 Nov 2009 16:54:29 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3511 I'm not sure when such images enter Western art and become a tradition there. One probably thinks first of late Medieval / early Renaissance death images, such as Hans Holbein's <em>Dance of Death,</em> which dates from the early 16th century. I suspect a line of influence could be traced back much earlier, but whether there is a connection with Asian artistic traditions I can't say. This mosaic below is from Pompeii, from around the beginning of the common era. <img src="http://www.asianart.org/images/blog/pompeii.jpg"/> I’m not sure when such images enter Western art and become a tradition there. One probably thinks first of late Medieval / early Renaissance death images, such as Hans Holbein’s Dance of Death, which dates from the early 16th century. I suspect a line of influence could be traced back much earlier, but whether there is a connection with Asian artistic traditions I can’t say. This mosaic below is from Pompeii, from around the beginning of the common era.

]]> By: Nancy http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3504 Nancy Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:37:28 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3504 I forgot to add that I don't think that Europe would have been aware of images from Indonesia until the Dutch conquest of the East Indies - 16th or 17th century? Chinese import porcelain was certainly popular but the tea sets didn't feature frightening ghosts - or - at least, I don't think so. I forgot to add that I don’t think that Europe would have been aware of images from Indonesia until the Dutch conquest of the East Indies – 16th or 17th century? Chinese import porcelain was certainly popular but the tea sets didn’t feature frightening ghosts – or – at least, I don’t think so.

]]> By: Nancy http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3503 Nancy Thu, 05 Nov 2009 08:34:41 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3503 I think that the skeleton image is from early Christian art, especially because so many Christians in Rome were buried in the catacombs. The memento morti with its reminder of death appeared pretty early - certainly by the time of the plague. Medieval Europe was an awful place - plague, constant war, famine, casual brutality, religious intolerance. I don't think any of those artists would have had to look very far for inspiration for the horrors show in their paintings. I've read that Bosch was "inspired" by the horrors of the wars of religion in the Low Countries but I also found a reference ergotism, brought on by the consumption of contaminated rye. I think that the skeleton image is from early Christian art, especially because so many Christians in Rome were buried in the catacombs. The memento morti with its reminder of death appeared pretty early – certainly by the time of the plague. Medieval Europe was an awful place – plague, constant war, famine, casual brutality, religious intolerance. I don’t think any of those artists would have had to look very far for inspiration for the horrors show in their paintings. I’ve read that Bosch was “inspired” by the horrors of the wars of religion in the Low Countries but I also found a reference ergotism, brought on by the consumption of contaminated rye.

]]> By: Ana http://www.asianart.org/blog/index.php/2009/10/30/this-museum-is-frightening/comment-page-1/#comment-3502 Ana Thu, 05 Nov 2009 05:53:38 +0000 http://www.asianart.org/blog/?p=1776#comment-3502 Tom, your mention of Bosch got a few knobs of memory turning just so for a connection: precisely the same form of 'anatomical re-composition' came handy to fill in blanks on the map of this and the other worlds seen from medieval Europe. 'Marvels of the East' comes to mind... Clearly, Indonesian ghosts would not have been accessible in Brabant around 1450. But, how much later? When did this imagery make first contact with the European nether-land bestiary? Tom, your mention of Bosch got a few knobs of memory turning just so for a connection: precisely the same form of ‘anatomical re-composition’ came handy to fill in blanks on the map of this and the other worlds seen from medieval Europe. ‘Marvels of the East’ comes to mind…

Clearly, Indonesian ghosts would not have been accessible in Brabant around 1450. But, how much later? When did this imagery make first contact with the European nether-land bestiary?

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